Talk:I Borg (episode)
Title Isn't the title of this episode "I Borg", as is shown on the episode? :Yeah. --Alan 23:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC) :: (from User talk:Gvsualan) I was absolutely positive there was a comma in the title. Just checked several places and they all say there is... then checked the episode and couldn't believe there wasn't! Well spotted... Dave 00:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::But every source I've seen spells (or rather, punctuates ;-) the episode "I, Borg", including Star Trek Encyclopedia, Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages, the Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion, and most significantly, this online script. I think the episode title card is a typo.– Cleanse 00:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : There you go: I, Borg...still a valid link. --Alan 00:38, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::My point is...I think it's clear what the official title of the episode is.– Cleanse 00:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : Yeah well, we've had this discussion every time this has happened, so rather than beating a dead horse, we can just visit all our lovely examples here. --Alan 00:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::::What does the script say?--31dot 01:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::::Now that I viewed the link :) shouldn't that be what we go with? Isn't that what the writer intended it to be?--31dot 01:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::re:Alan: I'm quite aware of what redirects are. You're still missing my point, which is that the redirect should be "I Borg" and the page should be "I, Borg". Every official and unofficial source refers to the episode that way, and most significantly the script - which we always rely on for spelling and what not - says the episode is "I, Borg". :::re:31dot - that's exactly what I'm getting at. – Cleanse 01:21, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : Yes, I am fully aware of what your point is, and that point has long been excused in favor of using what appeared on the title card. As you've said elsewhere, consistency is the key. --Alan 01:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::::How is it inconsistent to use what the writer intended the title to be? Where else do we use a ep title that is not what is in the script? :::It would be helpful if you could point out where the previous discussions are located.--31dot 01:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : Wow, okay. The episodes in question are listed with the linked examples. Apparently that link wasn't visited – or understood. --Alan 01:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::You do realise the onus is on you to show these past examples if you're going with the consistency argument? That's a list of every single episode that has a redirect, many of which are completely irrelevant to the question on hand, namely whether the script or the title card is given precedence, and most of which have no discussion on their talk pages. Seeing you can't be bothered to actually point to the actual past discussion on this issue, I find some on , (There is a discussion on ] but there's no mention of the script there so that's a seperate issue) Surely, you could have just linked those, instead of making us trawl through 40 odd talk pages for us to back up your point? :::In any case, I think those previous decisions are dead wrong. "Q Who?" is also referred to with the question mark everywhere I look, including the script again. I'm pretty sure the people writing the episode know its title better than the people making the title cards, and this is used by every other source. In any case, all I see is simple comments "MA always goes with the title card" without any justification why this would be the case. :::Consistency can also be bringing past decisions in line with a contemporary consensus.– Cleanse 02:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::::I visited it- and understood it- and as Cleanse said it's not relevant.--31dot 02:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : All those episodes are linked together in the same section for the same reason, which is why I added "I Borg" to that very section. :So, other than that, one way of the someone has to wade through articles, I already know this has been discussed and that this is the decision that was made, I don't need to prove it to myself, simply for following through with a long standing naming convention, and the simple case of a title name that was overlooked when all the others were appropriately "fixed"...and have since been unchallenged for an equal number of years... :And regarding the examples you gave, I known there are more relevant discussions on the subject (but due to eplk fixes and so forth the links aren't where they used to be to backtrack), they aren't as handy as the five minutes I wish to spend on this topic allowed, and quite frankly my time is more valuable spent doing things that keep Memory Alpha going... :So, with that said, the entire basis of Memory Alpha is to above all present information as it is presented on screen. If I watch "I Borg" or "Q Who", view "I Borg" or "Q Who" as the title card, then I would expect nothing else but to find the MA page at or , versus some title that exists in secondary sources. If I owned no reference guides, had no access to scripts or excuses, then I would wonder why MA has the title wrong when it is following the secondary sources over the primary sources. --Alan 04:20, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::::There have been errors in title cards before, "Rules of Acquisition" was spelled "Rules of Aquisition" the first time it was aired. That mistake was corrected before second airing. The missing comma has never been corrected, so it doesn't seem to be an error. If the title card lists the episode as "I Borg", so do we. This is the way the episode is called on screen. Even if every book or behind the scenes material (including the script) calls it "I, Borg", we still call it "I Borg", because that's what can be read on screen. --Jörg 07:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::Alan, your "time would have been better spent" if you'd been less evasive in the first place, and just said "We go with what's on screen because...". Not everyone has read every single discussion ever, and since you clearly had the knowledge of them, you could have enlightened us rather than providing a list link. It would also be helpful to realise that "no one has complained before" is not a valid rebuttal to someone challenging a new decision, and only leads to pointless conversations like this. If you give people reasons when they ask, it's more likely they'll accept it and move on. You could have said what you said just then in your last paragraph right off the bat. – Cleanse 11:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : While I always suspected it, and based on the challege here alone, but I guess I never realize "my word" is worth so little here...nor that it is my duty to state the obvious. You wanted a link, not a reason. --Alan 11:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::::I was writing something pretty similar to what Cleanse said, but he said it much better. I should think that it would be self-evident that if we're discussing the issue we would like the reason it was decided one way in the first place. It apparently is not "obvious" to us. Just because something is "obvious" to you doesn't mean it is to us.--31dot 11:37, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : And since when do we unilaterally accept secondary sources over primary sources on this site? --Alan 11:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::::In terms of a canon aspect of the Star Trek universe, we don't. But that's not what this is. This is about a person's work being titled correctly. I don't think its unreasonable to think that should be determined by reading the script(the person's work) not the episode title card(which someone else put together).--31dot 11:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::::Fact is: the title card wasn't changed in later airings of the episode, so the title, as it appears on screen, seems to be okay with the author and the people behind the scenes. --Jörg 11:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC) ::::That doesn't change the fact that the error exists, it only proves that they didn't want to spend the money to change it. Now, if it cost us money to change it here, I wouldn't do it either, but it doesn't cost money.--31dot 11:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::Well, I disagree with the characterisation of a script as a secondary source in a situation like this. It is a primary source for what the intentions of the writing staff were for the title of the episode. All the secondary sources I pointed out were just to show that the episode is widely accepted by both Paramount-approved and unofficial sources to be "I, Borg", which further emphasises the point that that is indeed the intended title.– Cleanse 12:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : Well you've certainly done an about face in a mere two months: "We call the episodes by what they're on-screen..." "...It's not our job to arbitraily retitle them for "consistency"." --Alan 12:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC) :::Well, for one, I was unaware of the existence of online scripts at that point. I saw an arbitrary suggestion (not one backed with evidence) that we retitle the episode, and I responded accordingly. Note how I said that I thought that "It's official title is indeed "Unification I"." No one pointed out that it was "Unification, Part I" in the script at that time. Again, I'm not all knowing and I base my comments upon what I'm aware of. :::I've looked it up now and I see that in addition to the script, the ST Encylopedia and ST.com carry the "Part II" moniker, so yes, that page should probably be retitled as well, though a note would be a good idea.– Cleanse 12:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC) : Script reliability is sketchy at best, because most of the scripts released on CD-ROM weren't the final "final drafts". If we go strictly by scripts, then we will be introducing as many perceived "errors" as we would be "correcting", including: would go to The Sacrifice of Angels, would go to Menage a Troi, and would go to "Badda-bing Badda bang" (and introduces yet another comma use dilemma). Then there is the case of the script for that alternates between that title and Til Death Do Us Part in every other reference... --Alan 15:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC) Better Quotes There are so many quotes on the page that I didn't want to crowd it with more. But does anyone else think these two might be better than some of the ones already on it? :"You will be assimilated" :"Yes, but before that happens could we ask you a few questions?" : -- Hugh and Geordie :"We are Hugh" : -- Hugh ::Go for it. IT IS GREEN 00:07, December 23, 2009 (UTC) Scattered throughout the galaxy? Guinan did not use the term "scattered throughout the galaxy" in BoBW. She used the word 'Universe'. Is it worth the nitpick?IT IS GREEN 22:28, December 11, 2009 (UTC) Citation needed I removed the following note, which has lacked citation for over two years now. Which non-canon books suggest this? * Some non-canon books have suggested that the virus, as it existed at that time, would not have destroyed the Borg, but would have merely been an "interesting puzzle", so that, in the end, Picard's decision to let Hugh return with his individuality intact was the right choice. –Cleanse ( talk | ) 10:16, January 29, 2011 (UTC) Removed quotes "Why do you do this?" "I'm just a nice guy at heart. You feeling better?" "You are not Borg." "That's right. And I hope to stay that way." "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile." "That's gratitude for you." : - Third of Five and La Forge, after La Forge helps Third of Five "feed" on the power "Locutus." "Yes. I ''am Locutus of Borg." "''Why are you here?" "This is a primitive culture. I am here to facilitate its incorporation. Identify yourself." "Hugh." "Identify yourself." "We are Hugh." "This is not a Borg identification." "Third of Five." "This culture will be assimilated." "They do not wish it." "Irrelevant." "They will resist us." "Resistance is futile." "Resistance...is not futile. Some have escaped." "They will be found. It is inevitable. ''All will be assimilated." "''Must Geordi be assimilated?" "Yes." "He does not wish it. He would rather ''die than be assimilated." "''Then he will die." "No. Geordi must not die. Geordi is a friend." "You will assist us to assimilate this vessel. You are Borg. You will assist us." "I will not." "What did you say?" "I will not assist you." "I?!" "Geordi must not be assimilated." "But you are Borg." "No. I am Hugh." : - Hugh and Picard, pretending to be Locutus in an attempt to bring out the Borg-like nature of Hugh, only to make Hugh fully develop into an individual Removed the above passages per MA:QUOTE.--31dot 01:04, December 19, 2011 (UTC)